TOPIC:

BC wrote: I'm astounded that the AFL tribunal was prepared to accept that no records were kept detailing exactly what was given to the players. of course records were kept and Dank and Hird know exactly what was injected. If I were the tribunal I'd say they are guilty unless they can prove otherwise...put the onus of proof back on those two dead beats.

Yes it is, well, beyond belief frankly. Therefore the only conclusion I can come to is that the documentation was incriminating and thus destroyed. It would appear at this moment that it was a good thing they did then. For them.

Watson and the other players saying they are able to sleep at night now, may be curtailed some time in the future when the first one of them begins to grow a tail or start having mutant children.

thefalconstrike wrote: Get over it you lot they were found NOT GUILTY!

I prefer to say not proven.

on the WA front from the West

Three former Bombers embroiled in the Essendon supplements saga will return through the WAFL this week in an outcome said to be a massive relief for the WA trio.

East Perth co-captain Brendan Lee, South Fremantle forward Cory Dell'Olio and Peel Thunder's Leroy Jetta will line up for their WAFL clubs on either Good Friday or Saturday after the AFL anti-doping tribunal yesterday delivered not-guilty verdicts for 34 past and present Essendon players.

The trio chose to serve a provisional suspension on advice from the AFL Players Association by sitting out the first two rounds of the State league season, including pre-season games, while the supplements scandal verdict was pending.

Bazza wrote:

Dirty Weekender wrote:

ShinyDuck wrote: "100's if not thousands of injections"

If they weren't doing anything dodgy why did Thompson and Reid tell them to stop?

And if they didn't take the Beta 4 stuff they imported from China and compounded, where is it then?

The club never purchased TB-4 ever. They never imported it. They never compounded it. The business you refer to in China has nothing to do with the EFC and was between 3 individuals acting in their own interests. That's why the case of ASADA's failed because they can not place TB-4 at the club. The tribunal did not even consider if the players were actually administered TB-4 because their is no evidence to satisfy it existed. TB-4 was only ever dragged in to the saga when it was clear ASADA's case against AOD had fallen over and they needed to save face. Even McDevitt concedes that they do not know what that drug was and clearly by issuing SCNs without any evidence to back up its presence at EFC made a captains call to proceed anyway in complete defiance of what his own investigators advised him against doing. And lets not forget those injection numbers you mention and that everyone keeps squealing about contain all AOD and vitamin shots in an attempt to enhance & promote negative public opinion against the club even though these substances were not under investigation. ASADA huffed and puffed, bluffed then aggressively bluffed again by issuing the SCNs and when it came time to show their hand they were holding nada.

This case was always about AOD and yes if ASADA hadn't fucked up EFC would be as guilty as sin. The irony of that would now be that they would have been found guilty of using a substance that is now deemed fit and safe for human consumption even in baby food. This whole thing should have ended the moment it was made clear AOD was not going to be pursued and most likely would have been if not for the entry of a gung ho trigger happy McDevitt whose governance should now be under scrutiny after ignoring the advice from his foot soldiers who actually investigated the case. As for the EFC governance penalties yes the club I support deserved them and we will hurt for the next decade with the loss of those draft picks unless of course the players remaining on our list grow a few extra feet. gain a couple of extra legs maybe sprout some wings to suit the new game plan Hird has been working towards all this time

The only thing that could not be proven was the admisnistration of the PED to the players, the sole reason for this was the appauling lack of record keeping at EFC, clearly this in itself is unacce[table.

My understanding from media referencing the 130 page tribunal report Bazza is that to satisfy a guilty verdict over TB-4 they first had to be satisfied the supplement in question actually was TB-4, second that the EFC actually had this substance at its disposal by way of purchase or second hand access and third that they then administered it to the players. This 3rd stage was not even considered by the tribunal because the circumstantial evidence ASADA had gathered was considered baseless and littered with hypothetical information from untrustworthy witnesses. ASADA's evidence at best offered hypothetical evidence of the existence of TB-4 and the tribunal unanimously rejected this as comfortably satisfying use of the banned peptide. The SCNs to players should never have been issued by ASADA but they pushed forwarded anyway hoping they would get a player within the 34 to panic and broker a deal that would incriminate all in doing so. Unfortunately for ASADA the players to this day only have knowledge of having been administered permitted supplements so weren't prepared to lie to make it all go away.

McDevitt's personal attacks in the media since the verdict conveying his anger accurately reflect the demeanour of a bloke who just had his bluff called. Exactly what was in Charters original statements before ASADA removed stuff to suit their version and which led Charter and to a lesser extent Alavi to refuse to sign is the first thing I'd be asking if McDevitt chooses to appeal the decision. What was so important that ASADA deemed it more important not to be revealed than to have their witness statements verified and signed as fact by the 2 people they allegedly gathered them from? One can only assume something in Charters original statement may have offered alternate evidence as to what supplements may have been requested and in turn ruined their version of events. Getting witness statements signed under statutory oath was critical to the circumstantial evidence they admitted having any credibility yet they chose this path rather than to admit Charters full original statement which he by all reports was prepared to sign until it was doctored by ASADA's lawyers. A conscious, considered decision by ASADA to withhold information offered by their chief witness from the tribunal. So much for transparency from the investigating authority!!! ASADA never rebuked Charters suggestions in the media he didn't sign his witness statements because they were doctored by ASADA's lawyers so the question remains. What information are they withholding? What are you hiding Ben? What else did you learn from the bloke who allegedly sourced the raw ingredients for these banned supplements you still insist have been used at Windy Hill? Not gonna hold my breathe for answers that's for sure.

The other problem for Ben is if WADA do come in over the top looking for answers or to pursue the case then Govt will have no choice but to hold an independent inquiry/royal commission in to the handling of the case. Demetriou, Gillon, the entire AFL commission, 'I can't recall' Andruska, David Evans, Julia Guillard and Co, McDevitt, ASADA investigators, Caroline Wilson, Charters, Dank, Alavi all under oath with jail terms hanging over their heads for perjury if they don't talk truths let alone being found to having acted outside of the law.

Go on McDevitt.....Appeal..,,I dare you.....I'm an Essendon supporter and I actually want to know the truth and right now it is my belief that none of us are the wiser. The players have been the victims here and rightfully have avoided further persecution at this stage but the shit stain remains on everybody else associated with this investigation on both sides of the fence. Besides Hird, which other major persons outside of the EFC involved has been muffled and forced/required to sign a non-disclosure agreement? The one person the rest of them were after whilst they get to hide behind the anonymity of the righteousness of their privileged positions. After the political interference clearly evident in this case the large sporting community of this nation deserve a fully independent inquiry in to the handling of the saga to ensure cases brought forward in future do not seek to destroy athlete's reputations and futures through manipulation of the media until a full and thorough investigation has been completed and ruled upon or alternatively for the ministers originally involved to stand back up on those same steps at Parliament House and apologise, retract and denounce 'the blackest day in Australian Sport' claims that they made as being false and misleading. They got it wrong and our athletes and numerous sporting codes deserve an apology.

First thing you should do is stop with the conspiracy threories DW., your club doped and basically got off on a technicality I really hope WADA appeal Charter ,Alavi and Dank will be compelled to attend and be cross examined or they will be done for perjury.

Your club has awoken a sleeping giant in WADA they will and cannot let drug cheats off unpunished and if found guilty at Cas longer suspension will ensue I've got a feeling this ain't over by a long shot.

Peter North wrote: First thing you should do is stop with the conspiracy threories DW., your club doped and basically got off on a technicality I really hope WADA appeal Charter ,Alavi and Dank will be compelled to attend and be cross examined or they will be done for perjury.

Your club has awoken a sleeping giant in WADA they will and cannot let drug cheats off unpunished and if found guilty at Cas longer suspension will ensue I've got a feeling this ain't over by a long shot.

WRONG - Evidence, broadly construed, is anything presented in support of an assertion. This support may be strong or weak. The strongest type of evidence is that which provides direct proof of the truth of an assertion. At the other extreme is evidence that is merely consistent with an assertion but does not rule out other, contradictory assertions, as in circumstantial evidence.

Due process has been served and it would be a waste of time on an organisation whoever it is to proceed. THE RESULT WILL BE THE SAME.

Accept it and move on as nothing will be achieved by the Government organisation or otherwise of proceeding just to JUSTIFY THEIR INCORRECT PROCESS AND LOSS

Peter North wrote: First thing you should do is stop with the conspiracy threories DW., your club doped and basically got off on a technicality I really hope WADA appeal Charter ,Alavi and Dank will be compelled to attend and be cross examined or they will be done for perjury.

Your club has awoken a sleeping giant in WADA they will and cannot let drug cheats off unpunished and if found guilty at Cas longer suspension will ensue I've got a feeling this ain't over by a long shot.

Well it looks like my last paragraph was spot on after all.

Dirty Weekender wrote:

Bazza wrote:

Dirty Weekender wrote:

ShinyDuck wrote: "100's if not thousands of injections"

If they weren't doing anything dodgy why did Thompson and Reid tell them to stop?

And if they didn't take the Beta 4 stuff they imported from China and compounded, where is it then?

The club never purchased TB-4 ever. They never imported it. They never compounded it. The business you refer to in China has nothing to do with the EFC and was between 3 individuals acting in their own interests. That's why the case of ASADA's failed because they can not place TB-4 at the club. The tribunal did not even consider if the players were actually administered TB-4 because their is no evidence to satisfy it existed. TB-4 was only ever dragged in to the saga when it was clear ASADA's case against AOD had fallen over and they needed to save face. Even McDevitt concedes that they do not know what that drug was and clearly by issuing SCNs without any evidence to back up its presence at EFC made a captains call to proceed anyway in complete defiance of what his own investigators advised him against doing. And lets not forget those injection numbers you mention and that everyone keeps squealing about contain all AOD and vitamin shots in an attempt to enhance & promote negative public opinion against the club even though these substances were not under investigation. ASADA huffed and puffed, bluffed then aggressively bluffed again by issuing the SCNs and when it came time to show their hand they were holding nada.

This case was always about AOD and yes if ASADA hadn't fucked up EFC would be as guilty as sin. The irony of that would now be that they would have been found guilty of using a substance that is now deemed fit and safe for human consumption even in baby food. This whole thing should have ended the moment it was made clear AOD was not going to be pursued and most likely would have been if not for the entry of a gung ho trigger happy McDevitt whose governance should now be under scrutiny after ignoring the advice from his foot soldiers who actually investigated the case. As for the EFC governance penalties yes the club I support deserved them and we will hurt for the next decade with the loss of those draft picks unless of course the players remaining on our list grow a few extra feet. gain a couple of extra legs maybe sprout some wings to suit the new game plan Hird has been working towards all this time

The only thing that could not be proven was the admisnistration of the PED to the players, the sole reason for this was the appauling lack of record keeping at EFC, clearly this in itself is unacce[table.

My understanding from media referencing the 130 page tribunal report Bazza is that to satisfy a guilty verdict over TB-4 they first had to be satisfied the supplement in question actually was TB-4, second that the EFC actually had this substance at its disposal by way of purchase or second hand access and third that they then administered it to the players. This 3rd stage was not even considered by the tribunal because the circumstantial evidence ASADA had gathered was considered baseless and littered with hypothetical information from untrustworthy witnesses. ASADA's evidence at best offered hypothetical evidence of the existence of TB-4 and the tribunal unanimously rejected this as comfortably satisfying use of the banned peptide. The SCNs to players should never have been issued by ASADA but they pushed forwarded anyway hoping they would get a player within the 34 to panic and broker a deal that would incriminate all in doing so. Unfortunately for ASADA the players to this day only have knowledge of having been administered permitted supplements so weren't prepared to lie to make it all go away.

McDevitt's personal attacks in the media since the verdict conveying his anger accurately reflect the demeanour of a bloke who just had his bluff called. Exactly what was in Charters original statements before ASADA removed stuff to suit their version and which led Charter and to a lesser extent Alavi to refuse to sign is the first thing I'd be asking if McDevitt chooses to appeal the decision. What was so important that ASADA deemed it more important not to be revealed than to have their witness statements verified and signed as fact by the 2 people they allegedly gathered them from? One can only assume something in Charters original statement may have offered alternate evidence as to what supplements may have been requested and in turn ruined their version of events. Getting witness statements signed under statutory oath was critical to the circumstantial evidence they admitted having any credibility yet they chose this path rather than to admit Charters full original statement which he by all reports was prepared to sign until it was doctored by ASADA's lawyers. A conscious, considered decision by ASADA to withhold information offered by their chief witness from the tribunal. So much for transparency from the investigating authority!!! ASADA never rebuked Charters suggestions in the media he didn't sign his witness statements because they were doctored by ASADA's lawyers so the question remains. What information are they withholding? What are you hiding Ben? What else did you learn from the bloke who allegedly sourced the raw ingredients for these banned supplements you still insist have been used at Windy Hill? Not gonna hold my breathe for answers that's for sure.

The other problem for Ben is if WADA do come in over the top looking for answers or to pursue the case then Govt will have no choice but to hold an independent inquiry/royal commission in to the handling of the case. Demetriou, Gillon, the entire AFL commission, 'I can't recall' Andruska, David Evans, Julia Guillard and Co, McDevitt, ASADA investigators, Caroline Wilson, Charters, Dank, Alavi all under oath with jail terms hanging over their heads for perjury if they don't talk truths let alone being found to having acted outside of the law.

Go on McDevitt.....Appeal..,,I dare you.....I'm an Essendon supporter and I actually want to know the truth and right now it is my belief that none of us are the wiser. The players have been the victims here and rightfully have avoided further persecution at this stage but the shit stain remains on everybody else associated with this investigation on both sides of the fence. Besides Hird, which other major persons outside of the EFC involved has been muffled and forced/required to sign a non-disclosure agreement? The one person the rest of them were after whilst they get to hide behind the anonymity of the righteousness of their privileged positions. After the political interference clearly evident in this case the large sporting community of this nation deserve a fully independent inquiry in to the handling of the saga to ensure cases brought forward in future do not seek to destroy athlete's reputations and futures through manipulation of the media until a full and thorough investigation has been completed and ruled upon or alternatively for the ministers originally involved to stand back up on those same steps at Parliament House and apologise, retract and denounce 'the blackest day in Australian Sport' claims that they made as being false and misleading. They got it wrong and our athletes and numerous sporting codes deserve an apology.

DW you have got your wish; the case will be decided by the CAS. You can argue the hyperbole used, the fact remains that they were not found guilty at the AFL level because there was doubts about what they were injected with. By any measure that is not very edifying and is actually quite appalling. Therefore, one can argue that it is indeed the blackest day in sport in Australia given the possible adverse health consequences to Essendon players in the future.

I hope WADA do a better job than the local numpties.

Bazza wrote: I hope WADA do a better job than the local numpties.

There will be QCs and SCs at 10 paces.