TOPIC:

BC wrote:

You're across this stuff Freez but aren't there something like 14 mandatory immunisation shots for kids these days in Oz? I could be wrong but thought kids got jabbed for things like chickenpox, polio, mumps, rubella and so on and if they don't, there's consequences like not being allowed to day care and that sort of stuff....maybe it's changed since my kids were little.

Spot on - which makes this anti-vax / mandate thing even more laughable.  They just pick and choose
Immunisation requirements for child care services, kindergarten and schools (health.wa.gov.au)

Jake wrote:

Freez a decent article that I can see logic for an individual wanting to get vaxxed, particularly in the vulnerable category. But my argument is against segregation not usefulness of the vaccine. It does not address the mandates just encourages people to get vaccinated. Nothing wrong with encouragement.

Although the idea of getting multiples of one vaccine is not new, lets not equate the diseases of tetanus, diphtheria, and whooping cough with COVID, particularly for children. They are infinitely more harmful to children than COVID is to adults. The best equivalent is the flu jab. They helped in reducing the hospitalisations and death and it does wane over time. However, no one lost their jobs or were barred from restaurants etc.

I would like you to explain how is it that US states that had Vax passports fared no better in hospitalisations and deaths than those that did not? Is it because there is much more to those factors than just vax status. It's the old analogy if you have a hammer everything is a nail. Obesity and age are again by far the most common factor not Vax status. That is the reason why US states and other countries are dropping the punitive measures. Which we in WA seem like that is the only option to keeping us safe.

We must be careful that implementing punitive measures do not have unforeseen consequences. For example we have had a massive increase in pool/bath deaths in kids over the lockdown periods (which is directly linked to the lockdowns). In fact more (extra) children have died due to that than COVID. Does that mean the lockdowns were worth it? They probably were but still it shows that maybe these measures we cannot be sure that they work out how we think they will.

My original premise still stands. If we are going to segregate approx 10% of society atm, will be even more by the time the booster mandate kicks in, then we would want to have overwhelming evidence that we have done the right thing. I'm yet to see anything that says these punitive measures are worth the risk v reward.

What risks are you talking about?  Are you suggesting people are dying in mass from the vaccine?  

Deaths by drowning during lockdown?  By your logic there has also been a reduction in road accidents during lockdowns due to working from home. So we should keep them?  It works both ways and its an absurd argument.  

Mcbob wrote:

BC wrote:

You're across this stuff Freez but aren't there something like 14 mandatory immunisation shots for kids these days in Oz? I could be wrong but thought kids got jabbed for things like chickenpox, polio, mumps, rubella and so on and if they don't, there's consequences like not being allowed to day care and that sort of stuff....maybe it's changed since my kids were little.

Spot on - which makes this anti-vax / mandate thing even more laughable.  They just pick and choose
Immunisation requirements for child care services, kindergarten and schools (health.wa.gov.au)

Pretty sure the no jab no play law is only for day care and kindy, not school, and it’s not too difficult to get an exemption, unlike the c jab which I understand is near impossible to get an exemption 

If you read my post I said that the lockdowns were probably were worth it, especially as we only had limited information in 2020. But it is hardly an absurd argument. Do you not agree that you must look at unintended consequences of things like lockdowns and weight them up. That is a completely normal thing to review of anything of this magnitude. To not would be absurd. Childhood obesity has soared through the pandemic. Do you not think that in 30 years time that may come back to bite us? Melanoma, prostate, breast checks have significantly reduced over the past 2 years. In those cases not picking up the early detection of those cases will have a devastating effect. Unfortunately there are consequences and to talk about them is not absurd.

I have never said anything of the like about the vaccine being unsafe so please do not transpose your ideas of who a anti-madate person is and how they think.

What I'm talking about the risk v reward of segregating possibly 10% of the population. That again has unforeseen consequences. Social tension which we are already seeing in small doses. A whole group of people disenfranchised from society, work, social events, people looking at them as second-class. It does not bode well on a societal level. We see when we have created second-class people in a society that health and education rates, in that group, go down which leads to generational issues. Please do not tell me that in 2022 when the whole world is moving on from the Vax v Unvax argument that we are doing the right thing here.

I know that all those countries around the world who either never had mandates or have overturned them are realising that this division and other consequences can be just as if not more damaging on the population than covid.

Now I have had to do a lot of defending. But can you please outline to me why you think segregation is a good idea. Let me know the real health benefits of it?

Jake wrote:

If you read my post I said that the lockdowns were probably were worth it, especially as we only had limited information in 2020. But it is hardly an absurd argument. Do you not agree that you must look at unintended consequences of things like lockdowns and weight them up. That is a completely normal thing to review of anything of this magnitude. To not would be absurd. Childhood obesity has soared through the pandemic. Do you not think that in 30 years time that may come back to bite us? Melanoma, prostate, breast checks have significantly reduced over the past 2 years. In those cases not picking up the early detection of those cases will have a devastating effect. Unfortunately there are consequences and to talk about them is not absurd.

I have never said anything of the like about the vaccine being unsafe so please do not transpose your ideas of who a anti-madate person is and how they think.

What I'm talking about the risk v reward of segregating possibly 10% of the population. That again has unforeseen consequences. Social tension which we are already seeing in small doses. A whole group of people disenfranchised from society, work, social events, people looking at them as second-class. It does not bode well on a societal level. We see when we have created second-class people in a society that health and education rates, in that group, go down which leads to generational issues. Please do not tell me that in 2022 when the whole world is moving on from the Vax v Unvax argument that we are doing the right thing here.

I know that all those countries around the world who either never had mandates or have overturned them are realising that this division and other consequences can be just as if not more damaging on the population than covid.

Now I have had to do a lot of defending. But can you please outline to me why you think segregation is a good idea. Let me know the real health benefits of it?

Because some bed wetters are so afraid of their own shadow that anyone with different views is seen as a threat to their existence, much like the folk who burnt "different" women on the stake in the dark ages

Anti-Mandate people are only slightly more (and i mean by the smallest amount) intelligent than Anti-Vaxxers.
And Anti-mandate people who are vaxxed? What is their deal? They believe its a government conspiracy? To what? wipe out the population with side affects?
If in 20 years all the vaxxed people die of some side affect to the vax, then you can come on here and say - told you so. Until then shut the f'ck up.

Vaccines leads to reduced rates transmission leading to reduced rate of of illness, leading to reduced rates of deaths. You can argue about the % of each but its there. So if we all do our part, its leads to a better overall protection for society.

The mandates arnt damaging anyone except those who dont get vaxxed. And who gives a shit about those f'wits.
So far the impact of mandates on me is 3 x 30 mins vax sessions over the last 10 months. Life altering impacts there. Ive wasted way more time arguing on here with you.  Plus another 30 mins setting up the App

Mcbob wrote:

Anti-Mandate people are only slightly more (and i mean by the smallest amount) intelligent than Anti-Vaxxers.
And Anti-mandate people who are vaxxed? What is their deal? They believe its a government conspiracy? To what? wipe out the population with side affects?
If in 20 years all the vaxxed people die of some side affect to the vax, then you can come on here and say - told you so. Until then shut the f'ck up.

Vaccines leads to reduced rates transmission leading to reduced rate of of illness, leading to reduced rates of deaths. You can argue about the % of each but its there. So if we all do our part, its leads to a better overall protection for society.

The mandates arnt damaging anyone except those who dont get vaxxed. And who gives a shit about those f'wits.
So far the impact of mandates on me is 3 x 30 mins vax sessions over the last 10 months. Life altering impacts there. Ive wasted way more time arguing on here with you.  Plus another 30 mins setting up the App

So you don't give a fk about the elderly in age care who simply don't want to be jabbed at their stage of life or the indigenous that don't want to be jabbed with what they say is white mans poison?? They are the majority of the unvaxxed 

DG wrote:

Mcbob wrote:

Anti-Mandate people are only slightly more (and i mean by the smallest amount) intelligent than Anti-Vaxxers.
And Anti-mandate people who are vaxxed? What is their deal? They believe its a government conspiracy? To what? wipe out the population with side affects?
If in 20 years all the vaxxed people die of some side affect to the vax, then you can come on here and say - told you so. Until then shut the f'ck up.

Vaccines leads to reduced rates transmission leading to reduced rate of of illness, leading to reduced rates of deaths. You can argue about the % of each but its there. So if we all do our part, its leads to a better overall protection for society.

The mandates arnt damaging anyone except those who dont get vaxxed. And who gives a shit about those f'wits.
So far the impact of mandates on me is 3 x 30 mins vax sessions over the last 10 months. Life altering impacts there. Ive wasted way more time arguing on here with you.  Plus another 30 mins setting up the App

So you don't give a fk about the elderly in age care who simply don't want to be jabbed at their stage of life or the indigenous that don't want to be jabbed with what they say is white mans poison?? They are the majority of the unvaxxed 

No i dont. Being ignorant isnt an excuse to put others at risk.  My vaxxed father in law died from COVID in sydeny, after catching it in his care home after a few un-vaxxed elderly people stayed there.  
And the indigenous?  Give me a break.  They dont mind using white man's technology.  Or consuming white mans beverages.  Selective bunch.
Education is key.   

Yes well it could be argued that they are only putting themselves at risk and its their choice. This is omicron now not the Spanish flu. Sorry for your loss. My nan passed in age care someone "brought" in the flu and she died of pneumonia

DG wrote:

Yes well it could be argued that they are only putting themselves at risk and its their choice. This is omicron now not the Spanish flu. Sorry for your loss. My nan passed in age care someone "brought" in the flu and she died of pneumonia

It was Delta back then. Bu8t who knows in 2 month we could have another variant pop up thats worse? 

Its a numbers game.  The better i protect myself, the better i protect others.  And that flows on exponentially.  Even it it helps 1 person i know not get COVID - worth it.   Not much to ask for people to consider how their choices affect others.