TOPIC:

That is to say, what sides have done well in the competition with relatively weak ruckmen?

WP 82 and 85
the PFC in the 1970s?
EF 1984-6 comparred to Subi and SD
SF -- Michael's greatness hid the realtive weakness

Ark...Paul Harding was just as good as Scott, Keene, Johns and Sartori mate....not sure what you mean by weak ruckmen for EF between 1984-86 even compared to Subi and SD....all talented in their own way...Keene should of dominated a lot more with his superior height...Scort and Sartori like Harding were great movers....... for EF Big Ron for his age had great nous and used his body well for an old fella....Mick Johns wasn't he a Subi cast off?....who had a plethora of riches at his feet in Baker, Narkle x2, Neesham et al when he came to SD?....

Freezin: Harding rucked against Sidebottom, PS, MJ and Wayne Sims and achieved great things against them. Given the numbers, and the players, he had at his disposal, do you think John Todd would have expected to win the ruck duals against EF?

In relation to Keene he played mainly in the forward line until 1986, which cost us a place in the four and a premiership respectively, 1984-5. We had such players as Paul Ross in the ruck . When Keen rucked in grand finals we won them in 86 and 88.

It is the competition and numbers of opponents that Harding faced which made him great. His history also demonstrates, the logic behind the thread, which is that, it is possible to win the flag with a relatively weak ruck division.

Paul Harding was as good a ruckman as any going around in his day. Played for the Hawks and Saints, then won a flag at a West Coast. I remember when Brad Smith and Big Ron ran onto the ground they gave the team a lift, even at their twilight years.

Paul Harding was EF lead ruckman in that era with a chop out from Big Ron & John Nolan with the likes of Guy Baxter, Graeme Carter, Steve Matthews and Brad Tunbridge making sporadic appearances from memory.
The likes of Bennett, Lockyer & Waterman may have done a little bit of ruckwork around the ground to help out as looking at the hit outs from that era (thanks to waflfootyfacts) Harding would have had close to 75% of EF's hit outs especially after Big Ron hung up the boots.
Harding was a very good skilful player who was so mobile he was like a ruck rover covering around the ground, lets not forget AR he was also a regular for WA in that very successful SOO era!

Ark... I think I am missing your logic here mate....are you are saying sides with weak rucks won flags over that period?....yet you say Subi missed opportunities to win flags in 84-85, because their Best ruckman Keene played predominantly forward...but when Keene did ruck in 86/88 Subi started winning flags?...EF played 3 GF in a row with Harding the mainstay in their ruck.....pretty sure if EF were reliant on the likes of Nolan, Baxter etc as their rucks, with no Harding, they wouldn't of been as successful....

always respect your knowledge and topics Ark, but not sure what you are getting at here.....great era of footy tho, always love talking about those days, remember them fondly, though sadly not as well as others....especially BH....his memory is astonishing and photographic for the 1% stuff back then...

ArkRoyal wrote: Freezin: Harding rucked against Sidebottom, PS, MJ and Wayne Sims and achieved great things against them. Given the numbers, and the players, he had at his disposal, do you think John Todd would have expected to win the ruck duals against EF?

In relation to Keene he played mainly in the forward line until 1986, which cost us a place in the four and a premiership respectively, 1984-5. We had such players as Paul Ross in the ruck . When Keen rucked in grand finals we won them in 86 and 88.

It is the competition and numbers of opponents that Harding faced which made him great. His history also demonstrates, the logic behind the thread, which is that, it is possible to win the flag with a relatively weak ruck division.

Paul Harding doesn't support the theory because he was a great ruckman whose signature attracted the best team in the country. He was an excellent knock ruckman with mobility and fine ground skills too so was often called upon to represent the state helping W.A to win interstate championships and winning a Simpson medal for himself.

ArkRoyal wrote: That is to say, what sides have done well in the competition with relatively weak ruckmen?

WP 82 and 85
the PFC in the 1970s?
EF 1984-6 comparred to Subi and SD
SF -- Michael's greatness hid the realtive weakness

Fair enough the other sides mentioned AR who all played in GFs and won Premierships but not sure WP are relevant in this discussion as they were not in SD or CL class in 82 and were unceremoniously dumped out of the 1st Semi in 85 by SD!
One thing that probably stands out from that era with the rucks was having 2 (and in some instances 3) genuine quality ruckmen and with a class mosquito fleet at their feet usually amounted to success-
1980s
CL- Moss, Beecroft, Harper, D.O'Connell, Duke, D.Farmer
SD- Boucher, Sartori, A.Sidebottom, Cransberg, Hoyer, Johns
SF- Michael, Shaw, Moylan, Rawlinson, Henwood
EF- Harding, Alexander, Nolan, Tunbridge
SU- Keene, Scott, Cocker

EP always were about the place in the early part of 1980s in large part due to their ruck strength-
Ironmonger, Duke, Edwards, Ishchenko, Cocker, Bartlett, Nolan.

Freezin: He won Old Easts the flag in 1985, but was unable to do it in 1984-5 beccause of what was up against him. The same thing happened to Michael and Moss at Claremont and South each won one flag. Why was that? The key point is that, at some stage quanitity always trumps quality

I would say, in terms of our little theory about relative ruck strength, that it possible to do it, but difficult even with great ruckmen such as Michael and Moss and Harding.

Bease: I agree with you on EP that it was their 'relative' ruck strength which kept them about the place; WP was an interesting one, I put them in, as I thought they performmed well in 1982, with as you say, a relatively weak ruck.

Beasley Hutton wrote:

ArkRoyal wrote: That is to say, what sides have done well in the competition with relatively weak ruckmen?

WP 82 and 85
the PFC in the 1970s?
EF 1984-6 comparred to Subi and SD
SF -- Michael's greatness hid the realtive weakness

Fair enough the other sides mentioned AR who all played in GFs and won Premierships but not sure WP are relevant in this discussion as they were not in SD or CL class in 82 and were unceremoniously dumped out of the 1st Semi in 85 by SD!
One thing that probably stands out from that era with the rucks was having 2 (and in some instances 3) genuine quality ruckmen and with a class mosquito fleet at their feet usually amounted to success-
1980s
CL- Moss, Beecroft, Harper, D.O'Connell, Duke, D.Farmer
SD- Boucher, Sartori, A.Sidebottom, Cransberg, Hoyer, Johns
SF- Michael, Shaw, Moylan, Rawlinson, Henwood
EF- Harding, Alexander, Nolan, Tunbridge
SU- Keene, Scott, Cocker

EP always were about the place in the early part of 1980s in large part due to their ruck strength-
Ironmonger, Duke, Edwards, Ishchenko, Cocker, Bartlett, Nolan.

For the Old Easts - early 80's Andrew Purser. Late 80's Lance Durack was an unheralded player in sides that specialized in losing preliminary finals.